Expert help needed

[sunday]

I am having a second shower installed and am very concerned that I will end up not being able to use both and taps/ washing machine etc at the same time. I have had a number of plumbers around and they are all suggesting different solutions which doesn't fill me with confidence, especially as a water pressure test indicated that the megaflow/combi options suggested and quoted for by some would not work with my pressure & flow.

Who do I call to spec a system that will work to delivery a decent supply hot water to both showers at the same time and allow taps/washing machine etc to also be used?

I think, after much of my own time and research that the system will be vented maybe with pumps and larger water tank but I am happy to pay for confirmation of this and an opinion on whether the existing old boiler will be "man enough for the job".

I've been reading the posts here to help and want to thank you for putting such a helpful forum together.

 

[newbie1]

tbh if you are planning to use gallons of hot water then unless your water pressure is bad the megaflow would likely be fine BUT if you have poor pressure then consider a conventional system with pumps for the shower and a big cylinder
this sort of job for accuracy would need to be visually confirmed as the internet does have its limits

 

[Jimbob]

megaflows should have a 22mm main. But if you have a good pressure, but no a large enough main, you can fit an accumlator. They can be massive, but they do the trick

 

[sunday]

Thanks for the replies. I am keen to get someone independent to come and have a look and advise as I am way out of my depth. I have lost a bit of confidence with the plumbers I have seen as I have so many different suggestions and my flow and pressure are not good. Jimbob-what's an accumulator??

Would a heating engineer be able to advise and if so what qualifications do I look for when trawling the yellow pages?

Thanks for your help

 

[Jimbob]

A accumalator is a giant vessel used to store pressurised water, ideal for poor flow situations, but if the pressure is also poor it will not work. Well if you desperate for an unvented cylinder, is a new watermain an option? or is that problem geographic? Otherwise you will be looking at having a large headertank, vented hotwater cylinders, and maybe pumps for the showers. Worse case for a boiler if it does become undersized is that everything will take slightly longer to get upto temperture. But the heatloss of the house can be easily worked out.

I take it somebody has put a gauge on to measure the pressure?

There is loads of knowledgable honest guys around, Where are you based? you might be close to a forum member.

 

[sunday]

Thanks Jimbob..

Out of the various firms I have had around only British Gas tested the pressure and gave me the water pressure readings as; 12.5 ltrs @ 0 bar, 10 ltrs @ 1 bar, 7.5 ltrs @2 bar.

The fact that no-one else did this, and that they all suggested conflicting answers, left me feeling that I could be spending money getting a new system and not getting a solution if you see what I mean!

I should point out that I would normally not waste peoples (or my) time looking for quotes but was stuggling to get someone who would do "right" job for my situation.

I am happy to have a vented system provided it does the job and happy to spend money on a proper system spec as I am fast losing the will to live with this project!

I live in South Bucks-any recommendations welcome.

A accumalator is a giant vessel used to store pressurised water, ideal for poor flow situations, but if the pressure is also poor it will not work. Well if you desperate for an unvented cylinder, is a new watermain an option? or is that problem geographic? Otherwise you will be looking at having a large headertank, vented hotwater cylinders, and maybe pumps for the showers. Worse case for a boiler if it does become undersized is that everything will take slightly longer to get upto temperture. But the heatloss of the house can be easily worked out.

I take it somebody has put a gauge on to measure the pressure?

There is loads of knowledgable honest guys around, Where are you based? you might be close to a forum member.

 

[bobpape]

Even if you had a 50mm ingoing water main at 5 bar you would still have problems supplying all of the fittings with a constant temperature and flow, and there is nothing
more likely to set one up for a bad day than having to suffer bad plumbing at the start

To satisfy your requirements you will need to install a simple conventional system
600l cold storage tank 250l cylinder 28mm supplies,
The only question is how you heat the water ... with a dedicated boiler or share with
a central heating boiler, personally I would opt for a dedicated boiler that way when
it goes wrong you do not have a complete failure only the heating or hot water boiler goes down, and this can be averted if immersion heaters are installed.

 

[pauls]

how would an unvented system bare for this type of situation

 

[bobpape]

An unvented system can only be expected to perform in a similar manner to a combination boiler, they both depend on mains flow and pressure,

those type of systems are ok if you live on your own, when two people use the system problems arise but are controllable for example when one person is showering the other person refrains from washing up, or flushing a loo, but when three
or more people are involved then you have problems,
They are definitely no good for a family that leave the house at the same time in the morning.
I personally think that this type of what can only be described as bad plumbing,
is instrumental in triggering bad moods that last for hours.

 

[Plouasne]

An unvented system can only be expected to perform in a similar manner to a combination boiler, they both depend on mains flow and pressure,

those type of systems are ok if you live on your own, when two people use the system problems arise but are controllable for example when one person is showering the other person refrains from washing up, or flushing a loo, but when three
or more people are involved then you have problems,
They are definitely no good for a family that leave the house at the same time in the morning.
I personally think that this type of what can only be described as bad plumbing,
is instrumental in triggering bad moods that last for hours.

Can I take it you would be recommending that archaic tank (catch all the cr ap) roof system that is as old as the hills and just as good as yesterdays news then, if so again I despair for todays UK plumbing, they are being left further and further behind mainstream plumbing, in my opinion

 

[david williams]

tanks dont catch allthe crap if installed properly,one thing we are being warned about in the uk is that in the future we will be running short of water ,with mains feed plumbing [combis,unvented] once mains off you can flush your toilet once,cant bath or shower,and have no drinking water ,water taken out of a properly installed tank can be boiled for drinking.all plumbing systems have their good and bad points.

 

[Plouasne]

tanks dont catch allthe crap if installed properly,one thing we are being warned about in the uk is that in the future we will be running short of water ,with mains feed plumbing [combis,unvented] once mains off you can flush your toilet once,cant bath or shower,and have no drinking water ,water taken out of a properly installed tank can be boiled for drinking.all plumbing systems have their good and bad points.

In 20 years of being in France, only once has there been no water, and that was for less than 3 hours, after a digger hit a water main, give me all mains pressure any day

 

[bobpape]

Can you drink French water now?

 

[Plouasne]

Can you drink French water now?

It hasn't hurt me, in 20 years, but can you trust the UK water now ??

 

[bobpape]

Having read your posts for the last couple of months I can not believe that you are an advocate of tankless plumbing.

 

[Plouasne]

Having read your posts for the last couple of months I can not believe that you are an advocate of tankless plumbing.

I move with the times, I am also an advocate of hard solder for copper tubes for water, and silver solder for gas fitting, plus a simple of the mains hot water cylinder in steel without all the bells and whistles the UK stuff has, and a combination boiler/cylinder in the same casing, (not those pathetic thing's called combis) together with a minimum of 3 bar water pressure in the water companies mains

Mind you I do draw the line at central heating for pigs, but have done a fair bit of it when I was on the tools in France

 

[bobpape]

Me thinks the frogs have got to you.

 

[Plouasne]

Me thinks the frogs have got to you.

Quoi ??

 

[david williams]

at the moment your water may ok but water has to be treated this costs energy as well as money.the future may well be different for all of us.you chose to live in france we in england ,we are all different and chose to do things differntly and not everthing in france is beter than england.in fact german plumbers feel france is behind the times .as for drinking uk water there is nothing wrong with it and if there was i would have to blame the french as they own the company that supplies mine.

 

[helpsy]

Malaysians own the water company in my area.
Do we own anything in our country!!!!

Oh yes we will soon own some more immigrants departing from France soon,just to top up our population!!!

 

[Bernie2]

I am afraid you can't get any more water than the water main lets you have.

The water companies are only obliged to supply water at about 1 bar and 9 litres a minute flow and that is at the outside boundary stop tap.

You already get 10 litres flow at 1 bar. So you are getting the legal minimum. Usually after that it is up to you if you want more performance from your system.

If you wanted to run everything off the main with an unvented cylinder for the hot, you have to remember the water main would be supplying both hot and cold.

Just looking at it simply

2 standard showers require a flow rate of about 5 litres a minute each = 10 litres per minute

A washing machine about = 5 -10 litres per minute

And each tap about = 5 litres a minute each

That makes roughly about 20 litres a minute required off the water main.

The problem is you only have 10 litres a minute to do it with.

You could ask your water company if they could uprate the main water supply, otherwise its sorting out some kind of stored system.

You could put flow limiters on, spray taps, eco shower heads and the like and bring the flow rates down that may help.

Another option is using a water storage booster as mentioned, to boost the cold water supply and allow more water to be drawn off. Have a look at Mainsboosters. But it all looks expensive.

You would have to go into it all carefully, to give you proper options, that is probably why your getting mixed reports off the Plumbers.

An unvented cylinder will easily cope with supplying enough water, but the problem is the water main will not cope with supplying the cylinder.

It may cope with flow limiters fitted to both the hot and cold supply. But its all a bit iffy without a proper look.

So looking at it simply: Your water supply seems inadequate to supply the water you want. Fitting a mains water booster, with an unvented cylinder may well do the job.

The alternative it seems is an increased stored water facility and possibly some pipe upgrades, depending on what you have now.

I understand your dilemma.

Good fortune.
　

 

[sunday]

Thanks all for your responses and Bernie, thank you especially for the neat summary of my predicament-this is exactly the problem.

I think it really is a question of getting the right person along to look at the entire system and advise accordingly-my challenge now is finding that person!

I may be back looking for more help but until then thanks again.

 

[stevetheplumber]

In 20 years of being in France, only once has there been no water, and that was for less than 3 hours, after a digger hit a water main, give me all mains pressure any day

in 21 years at this house my water has only been of when they replaced the main which was probably near a hundred years old

if france could do a proper job of stopping every tom dick and ahmed walking through its borders as it is supposed to we wouldnt have to supply water to so many people

 

[helpsy]

in 21 years at this house my water has only been of when they replaced the main which was probably near a hundred years old

if france could do a proper job of stopping every tom dick and ahmed walking through its borders as it is supposed to we wouldnt have to supply water to so many people

lol!!!!

 

[stevetheplumber]

I am having a second shower installed and am very concerned that I will end up not being able to use both and taps/ washing machine etc at the same time. I have had a number of plumbers around and they are all suggesting different solutions which doesn't fill me with confidence, especially as a water pressure test indicated that the megaflow/combi options suggested and quoted for by some would not work with my pressure & flow.

Who do I call to spec a system that will work to delivery a decent supply hot water to both showers at the same time and allow taps/washing machine etc to also be used?

I think, after much of my own time and research that the system will be vented maybe with pumps and larger water tank but I am happy to pay for confirmation of this and an opinion on whether the existing old boiler will be "man enough for the job".

I've been reading the posts here to help and want to thank you for putting such a helpful forum together.

if the main supply cant be improved you have two options
1 store water at low level and pump the water supply to your house
2 store water at high level and gravity supply to house
option 1 will give better preasure
option 2will probably be cheaper and preasure can be increased if you can raise the tanks in the loft 2m of head will give a decent shower if you have the correct mixers