I've settled on an Intergas boiler.

[Stan]

I have posted a few times, mainly regarding my indecision to go for either an Ideal or an Intergas open vent boiler.

Having taken note of comments here and having, today, visited [with my installer] a local Plumbase shop to see the area Representative/Contracts Manager displaying an Xclusive combi boiler I (we) have pretty much decided to go for a 30kw Xclusive Combi. The bigger (36kw) is a bit too tall to fit the space).

Initially, and by way of a sort of compromise, I will probably have it fitted as an OPEN VENT boiler which fulfills my desire for retaining an unpressurised system and in keeping the F & E in place - and will upgrade to a full combi heating system at a later stage - i.e. if the hot water cylinder starts to leak or something else forces my hand.

The feeds to the boiler are currently from above and I'm told there isn't a stand off frame currently available and in order to run the pipes behind the boiler the rep. suggested standing the boiler off the wall using two lengths of 2" x 2" and a board made from something like 18mm ply. Both the rep. and the guy in technical confirm there's no need for a heat resistant backboard.

I have a 22mm gas supply to the boiler. I'll fit a Magnaclean Pro 2 and will have the system flushed. I'll change the present manual bypass (in the cylinder cupboard) for an automatic one. I have already run a 3 plus earth cable from the cylinder to the boiler.

What, I wonder, have I missed?

Thanks to all who advised previously and led me towards the Intergas option.

 

[Stan]

It would be a bit surprising if this intergas approved.

I'll obviously stand to be corrected, as always, but the Intergas Technical Manager, David Stanley, speaking about the HRE & Eco RF combi tells viewers of a Youtube video how to convert the boilers to an open vent by disconnecting the pressure sensor.

It's at 7 mins 30 secs on this clip

 

[Riley]

Still doesn’t sound a particularly professional step to me. Look Stan if you want Intergas go with Intergas I think you could get a lot better ideas if you get quotes from other companies. Even if you don’t use them. That’s my opinion. I can’t really see the appeal of Intergas myself but there we are. I think a lot of the positive reviews will be down to the fact that they are still a relatively new player to the uk market so common faults will not be appearing yet. Also as said before, in my own limited experience, the one time I’ve worked on one and needed a part it had to come from Holland. I just think you need to think long and hard about what you’re trying to achieve long term as this just doesn’t seem the cost effective way to do it

 

[Stan]

Appreciate your additional thoughts there. Ta.

 

[Drewy]

Separate the boiler from the system with a plate heat exchanger and fit a Viessmann Vitodens 200 that will modulate nice and low.

 

[Rob Foster]

Separate the boiler from the system with a plate heat exchanger and fit a Viessmann Vitodens 200 that will modulate nice and low.

Regardless of which boiler I fully agree that the principle of fitting an intermediate heat exchanger really is the way fwds for the future...when we have had some spare time we have been exploring this area.
In fact once my new workshop is up and running ...is into this area we are heading. Even if it is a sacraficial unit deduct cost of a
magnetic type filter and boiler parts damaged by liquid sandpaper it starts to make sense.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Stan]

Just as a point of information - and to correct my mistake :-

We covered the question of the amount of head required to get the Xclusive to operate open vent. I said I had 3.6 bar and pointed to the video clip in #31.

I need to come back to say that I checked with the Technical helpline and whilst the information in that clip is correct - it does NOT apply to the Xclusive. The Xclusive won't run as open vent just by removing the pressure sensor - all the other models do - but not the Xclusive. They plan to correct that situation in time but it's not available now.

I value the suggestions, advice and options given here and thank you all again. I really am listening and taking note.

 

[John.g]

Regardless of which boiler I fully agree that the principle of fitting an intermediate heat exchanger really is the way fwds for the future...when we have had some spare time we have been exploring this area.
In fact once my new workshop is up and running ...is into this area we are heading. Even if it is a sacraficial unit deduct cost of a
magnetic type filter and boiler parts damaged by liquid sandpaper it starts to make sense.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

Are you suggesting Rob that the intermediate HX should be fitted in the event of retrofitting a gas fired boiler to a open vent system only or in all cases? My own > 40 year old open vent system is very clean but has never leaked or required top up as I have a isolating gate valve fitted in the F&E tank make up which I open every month or so to check for any leaks.

 

[Rob Foster]

Are you suggesting Rob that the intermediate HX should be fitted in the event of retrofitting a gas fired boiler to a open vent system only or in all cases? My own > 40 year old open vent system is very clean but has never leaked or required top up as I have a isolating gate valve fitted in the F&E tank make up which I open every month or so to check for any leaks.

not at all your boiler has water pathways the width of the M6 its the modern small boiler hx
that water pathways less than a *** paper and diverter valves that I mean. centralheatking

 

[king of pipes]

Well John that's what you do I have done the training and it is approved by Intergas . Kop

 

[John.g]

Do what?

 

[king of pipes]

It would be a bit surprising if this is intergas approved.

Unplugging the sensor- yes indeed you reminded me the rep. said that today. He said an awful lot and it's true to say I can't recall every word.[/QUOTE]

 

[John.g]

They must have great faith in the F&E tank never running dry.

 

[Riley]

They must have great faith in the F&E tank never running dry.

Which let’s be fair should never really happen on a well designed system

 

[Ben-gee]

although how many times have you been asked to change a three port valve because "the electrician tested it and says it's knackered that's why you have no heating" only to go up into the loft - knock down the arm of the ball valve in the f+e and listen to that glugging sound as the empty system re-fills......

 

[John.g]

Agree,although its only recently? that sensors are being fitted to oil fired boilers (mine has none) perhaps its to do with the oil fired boiler HX having a water capacity of ~ 20/25 litres and the temp sensor picking up on the high temp (steam generation in that water space) when water level is running low vs gas boiler HX (coil) of only 2 or 3 litres?.

 

[Riley]

although how many times have you been asked to change a three port valve because "the electrician tested it and says it's knackered that's why you have no heating" only to go up into the loft - knock down the arm of the ball valve in the f+e and listen to that glugging sound as the empty system re-fills....

Agreed but that’s not down to design. That’s a failed component. Lot to be said for sealing the system

 

[John.g]

It's very surprising to me at any rate that any manufacturer would even contemplate removing a sensor, what about the warranty in the event of damage due to low water level?.

 

[Larry Legroom]

stan,you have being doing homework re a new boiler.

You probably know intergas are a reliable brand and last a long time (if correctly serviced). Due to their longevity they don't need exchanging so often,that is now a problem for intergas.
other consideration is intergas have not entered the renewable market and in their home country natural gas is being phased out,so no more new builds resulting in less boiler sales and the existing gas customers are being offered decent cash incentives to go to an alternative renewable heat source.
Here in Uk they have not taken much of the lucrative new build market,which is a shame.
intergas have been bought out-acquired by an American company but will still operate (for how long we don't know) a European subsidiary.
Good luck.
LL

 

[Larry Legroom]

Opps,duplicate post. edited away.

 

[Riley]

stan,you have being doing homework re a new boiler.

You probably know intergas are a reliable brand and last a long time (if correctly serviced). Due to their longevity they don't need exchanging so often,that is now a problem for intergas.
other consideration is intergas have not entered the renewable market and in their home country natural gas is being phased out,so no more new builds resulting in less boiler sales and the existing gas customers are being offered decent cash incentives to go to an alternative renewable heat source.
Here in Uk they have not taken much of the lucrative new build market,which is a shame.
intergas have been bought out-acquired by an American company but will still operate (for how long we don't know) a European subsidiary.
Good luck.
LL

Interesting first post. Intergas Rep??

 

[Larry Legroom]

Intergas Rep??

Actually no but live in The Netherlands most of the year,So know many installers,repair technicians and heating retailers.

 

[Stan]

Firstly - thanks muchly for the replies to date. All have been inwardly digested and are appreciated.

Also - I am happy to admit when I'm wrong and I don't profess to know it all, coz I don't. And I know I'm often guilty of over-thinking things and this topic is just another one of them.

But Larry Legroom's post, above, has finally clicked a light-switch for me.

I didn't know about the take0ver by Rheem’s Global Water Division on 31st May 2019. But it has made me question whether I can be confident that if I fit something by Intergas, will they still be there, in the UK, to support my boiler in coming years (or months even?).

There are lots of things I like about Intergas :- I like the apparent simplicity and ease of access to the boiler's components. I like the large bore waterways in th HEX. I like the way the Tech. fella at their Head Office was easy to talk to and he offered pre-purchase info. very readily without any stuffy officialdom. I obviously don't know, in practice and at first hand, about spares and back-up in 2019. They may well be absolutely fine. Callout response times are something I read about and gather WB are (or were) good and the others might be good or might be variable - but I obviously don't know from experience.

Additonally, as stated, I fancied fitting a combi and initially using it as an OV or, possibly, a System boiler with the ability of being able to use it in full combi mode if I did away with the cylinder at some point in the future.

I think I was wrong on that point, mainly coz a combi wouldn't be entirely suitable here, primarily due to long pipe runs from the boiler (in the attached garage). My cylinder is pretty central to the taps and showers.

In summary then, I've gone back to the prospect of sticking to either a plain old Open Vent boiler (which, of course, I can easily convert to run as a System boiler later if I decided to) - or to bite the bullet and fit a Sytem boiler at the outset. We've covered that earlier and it's only the possibility of a leak due to pressurising the system that causes doubts

But no combi.

Regarding which OV (or System) boiler - I guess we're back to the likes of Ideal Logic + Max or Glow-worm Energy (similar to the Vaillant Ecofit Pure?) in the appropriate size (the current boiler is 50.000 btu/h and my Mears Calculator suggests a total of 16kw - so either the 15 or the 18 versions of either make presumably?).

I won't go down the Viessman route, much as I like the idea of a stainless HEX - I think I'd be opening another can of worms.

Sorry for long post.

And further thanks.

 

[king of pipes]

Hard to who knows owns what these days Stan, being in a garage I would go for a boiler pre insulated inside the casing another thing for you to consider ? Just serviced a HRE 36 combi I fitted a year ago and that is insulated . Kop

 

[Riley]

I still really don’t understand your aversion to sealing your system when so many professionals have told you it should be fine. Likewise if you really were thinking about the Combi then you could use a combi to do the some taps and using the Boiler to still heat a hot water cylinder still the options are there as I think loads of people said I really think you just need to talk to some other installers don’t just limit yourself to your mate

 

[Stan]

Thanks, and, no, Riley, I realise you don't get why I have expressed reservations. And, of course, I hear what you, and others, say and I accept why you say it. But we both know that there are bods who get customers to sign a proviso that if a newly pressurised system does happen to leak they (the installer) has pre-warned them and won't be held responsible.

However, I might, just possibly, , have inferred that, following the advice received, I'm coming round to the idea of pressurising it.

Hopefully there's no harm in exploring and considering the pros and cons and this is, with assistance of yourself and fellow members, is what I've done and appreciate the progress we're making. It's not an urgent matter insofar as the boiler still works, hence I can deliberate without being under pressure and the forum is a helpful place to air the options.

Yes, I was hooked on the idea of a combi for the reasons given. But, also for the subsequent reasons given, which include the impractically long hot water delivery pipe run to distant taps, I think I was wrong and I have returned to keeping the cylinder and three way valve etc (which are physically very accessible and have served our usage patterns well to date).

Also I just feel the simplicity of an OV (or System boiler) appeals to me. The Intergas has (had) much going fo it in my eyes but, we've been there and done that for the foreseeable future.

Yes, indeed, there will be benefit in getting other installers in. As I said I had one firm to quote, but at that time I also contacted two others, one of whom never bothered to come back to make an appointment after we spoke briefly on the phone - and the other one didn't reply after I left a message on their answerphone, and if I have a tame plumber/installer who I have known for 15 years and who pops round at the drop of a hat to fix anything that needs fixing - then it would be a bit of an embarrassment and a cause of awkwardness to get another installer in to do a similar job.

All the time you and/or others are happy to mull the matter over here, then I'm very happy to chew the fat and explore possibilities and appreciate the benefit of your experience, but if you decide the topic has run it's course then obviously you'll say so and call it a day

Ta muchly.

 

[John.g]

Something else maybe worth mentioning in the event of you retaining your Open Vent system. Its very important that the circ pump matches very closely the pumping characteristics of your present Grundfos pump as there have been numerous instances of pump over/pump back into the F&E tank because of this (mismatch).
Ideally you should get a externally mounted pump like you have and install it in the same position, I don't know if you can still purchase gas boilers without an integral pump but I would certainly suggest asking the question, one way or the other I would write down (now) the exact model number etc of your present pump and its speed setting, it just might save you some grief later.

 

[Stan]

Really sorry but you've well and truly lost me there, John.

I said I've re-considered and was reckoning on doing a 'one for one' swap by fitting either a new OV boiler (which, as you will surely know, has no internal pump) and thus retaining the existing Grunfos pump in the airing cupboard - or possibly creating a sealed system by either fitting a new system boiler with built in EV, or maybe converting a new OV boiler to a sealed system with a seperate expansion vessel etc at a later date.

 

[John.g]

That's fine Stan, you should be OK then if you can retain/ use the original circ pump with any of the replacement Gas Boilers.

 

[Riley]

John has a bit of a pump fetish I would not worry about. The pump let your installer think about it. Open vent boiler do not have a pump In that’s all you need to know if that’s the route you’re going down

 

[Stan]

Gotcha ! Ta.